In this episode of THE DAILY MEDITATION I discuss meditation, compassion, and relationships with Dr Wyatt Fisher.
Paul Harrison
Welcome to the daily meditation. My name is Paul Harrison, and joining me today is Doctor Wyatt Fisher. Hi, Wyatt. How are you doing? Good.
Dr Wyatt Fisher
Paul, thanks for having me.
Paul Harrison
It’s entirely my pleasure. So, Doctor Wyatt Fisher is a specialist in psychology, and especially in helping people. With relationships, so we’re going to be hearing lots of advice, not just on general mental health, but also on relationship. So should I call you Wyatt or Doctor Fisher?
Dr Wyatt Fisher
Whatever you prefer.
Paul Harrison
Sure. What was that on the first name basis? So Wyatt, why don’t you introduce yourself and tell us what you do?
Dr Wyatt Fisher
Yeah. So I’m a licensed psychologist. I have a masters and a doctorate in clinical psychology, and I’m a licensed psychologist in the state of Colorado. And and I specialize in couples. And so I’ve been working with couples for many years. I started my practice in 2004. And so I eat and breathe relationships. And then I’ve been married since 1999. And so a lot of the work I do with couples comes from most both a personal perspective and a professional perspective.
Paul Harrison
And so the work that you do with couples, could you give us, like, a few ideas of sort of techniques or exercises that you might use with couples?
Dr Wyatt Fisher
Yeah, the first thing I do when couples come into my practice is we start with resentments because resentments tend to be part and parcel to long term relationships because you have two imperfect people living with each other day in and day out. And so whether you intend to or not, couples partners tend to hurt one another or not meet each other’s needs perfectly. And it builds. Resentments. And then people either stuff down those negative feelings, or they blow up. And that hurts the relationship even further. And so a lot of couples, when they first come in, they have all these barriers and walls, which breaks down all areas of intimacy. And so we have to start with resentments, to work through those constructively, to clear the air. And I view it as digging out rocks in the soil of the relationships, so that then we can start planting seeds for new growth.
Paul Harrison
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I would imagine compassion has a huge thing, a huge bearing on that. Would that be correct? Yeah.
Dr Wyatt Fisher
Yes, it definitely can. And and empathy and being able to see a situation from your partner’s perspective and often we’re not even able to go there because we feel like we have to defend ourselves in response to our partners critiques. And so I teach couples a tool called the reunite tool. To work through those resentments so that it can feel emotionally safe so the walls can come down, which then brings forward more compassion and empathy.
Paul Harrison
So I’m going to ask you about that reignite tool. Just a little later on, but to start with, naturally this focus podcast is entirely about meditation and and I’m very intrigued about your. Opinion on meditation, as somebody who presumably has some experience meditating, but you also have obviously a more traditional and scientific approach to mental health. What do you use meditation in in your classes, and what are your thoughts on meditating?
Dr Wyatt Fisher
Yeah, I’m in favor of meditation. You know, I’ve read research studies that show regular meditation can be equal or almost equal to an antidepressant pill, just like 30 minutes of cardiovascular exercise can be equal or almost equal to an antidepressant pill. And so I’m definitely a proponent and supporter of meditation. And I practice meditation in my own life, more of a gratitude focused type of meditation. And so, yeah, I’m definitely a supporter.
Paul Harrison
Now, alongside meditation, I you certainly got a lot of knowledge on all kinds of mental health, tennis, whatever tennis could people use alongside meditation to ensure optimum mental health.
Dr Wyatt Fisher
Yeah, there’s different angles to optimize mental health. One is more of the the biological approaches, which is, you know, what we hear a lot about. You know, eating healthy, making sure you’re well rested, exercise spending time in the green space, which is out in nature. You know, making sure you have that meditation time. All those things are very important. You know, just from that biological to make sure your brain is getting that boost. Then also from a social perspective, it’s important to nurture relationships and have those connections. There is a whole domain within psychology helping couples or helping people who are depressed, called interpersonal psychotherapy. And the only thing that therapy does is help people build better relationships because research shows the more connected we feel, the less depressed we feel.
Paul Harrison
That was called inner. What was the name of that?
Dr Wyatt Fisher
Interpersonal psychotherapy.
Paul Harrison
Interpersonal psychotherapy. So how would one go about doing that?
Dr Wyatt Fisher
How would one go about doing that? Yeah. Well, and that type of therapy modality, they would work with the therapist to talk through, you know, where what relationships in their life are broken, whether it’s their significant other or siblings or. Parents and then friends. And then what could be done to help repair those relationships or create new community in their life? Because as I’m sure you know, you know it’s so easy to get isolated and then we have COVID on top of that. So so it’s a lot of it is just helping the individual see what their part is. On how they can build better relationships in their life.
Paul Harrison
So speaking about building better relationships, are there any specific kind of instances or stories that you could tell us of transformations that you’ve witnessed and the people whom you’ve worked with?
Dr Wyatt Fisher
Yeah, I’ve had multiple individuals that I’ve worked with who’ve come in and they’re depressed and they’re disconnected. It’s very common for people to come in if they’re depressed. Usually they’re disconnected. They don’t have much of A support system. And so usually we kind of work on two things. So one thing. Would be is their own attachment style which got established early on in their life. You know, maybe they’re doing certain behaviors that are pushing people away. You know, there’s a saying in social psychology that says we’re both the products and the producers of our social environment. Meaning that how we’re raised often produces our social interaction style with people, and then that social interaction style that we have with people creates our social realm in adulthood. So the products and the producers. So the first thing to look at is, you know, what is this person doing, if anything, that might be pushing people away. You know, maybe it’s they’re overbearing, or maybe they’re too introverted. Or maybe they can be critical. Sometimes they’re aware of what they might be doing sometimes they’re not aware. And so part of the therapeutic relationship, once trust is established, is for me to start providing feedback on things I notice about them and my interactions with. Yeah, because usually what you experience in the counseling room is a microcosm of what other people experience outside the counseling room with that person. So that’s one Ave. the 2nd Ave. is building more support systems, so that might be, you know, rekindling old friendships they had or nurturing family ties or working through problems they have with certain family or friends or it could include putting themselves in situations, develop new friendships, whether it’s you know, joining. A chess club or joining the softball league, something where the focus is not on building relationships, but instead it’s the focus on an activity where relationships become a byproduct.
Paul Harrison
I’d just like to go back to compassion because. A really core theme with we meditators and with our with our listeners. So I’m presuming you’ve have you had experience with things like love and kindness meditation.
Dr Wyatt Fisher
Somewhat yes.
Paul Harrison
I was just wondering what your thoughts would be on that is, is that something that would help people with the relationships if they’re kind of meditating on moments of compassion and bringing that to mind?
Dr Wyatt Fisher
Yeah, I’ve read different definitions on loving kindness and meditation. Would you mind defining it for me? With how you view it.
Paul Harrison
Certainly. So loving kindness meditation is. Originally a Buddhist practice in which we essentially bring to mind moments where we’ve either felt real compassion or we’ve given real compassion. And then we also use a mantra. So for just to give you an example. In traditional Buddhism, we said that we should start with our mother. So let’s imagine I’m meditating right now and I’ll bring to mind my mother, and I’ll think of. Very compassionate at times where she’s been compassionate to me and I’ve been compassionate to her. And then the next stage is to recite the mantra may. My mother or the name of the person you’re meditating on, have compassion, freedom, inner peace, health and happiness, and the strength to overcome any obstacles in their life. And then you would imagine them repeating that. Back to you. So that’s basically how love and kindness works.
Dr Wyatt Fisher
Yeah. Yeah. So it’s kind of a combination, it sounds like. Of remembering kind of compassionate moments, but also kind of visualizing positivity toward them as well.
Paul Harrison
Precisely, yeah, yeah.
Dr Wyatt Fisher
Yeah, yeah. You know, compassion is a a big component and I think you know anything like that where we can recall tender moments or compassionate moments with special people in our life or significant others in our life. It’s good to remember because it’s easy to remember negative things sometimes more than positive things. And when we can, we can recall those compassionate experiences we’ve had. And kind of let it soak in or marinate, then we’re more likely to experience compassion toward ourselves or toward others so we can replicate that model if we’ve experienced it ourselves, growing up or in other relationships.
Paul Harrison
So there’s certainly. From what you’ve been saying, there’s a lot of different approaches that people can take in order to to have a harmonious relationship. I like to do a section in this podcast where I. Get you to recommend a 5 minute challenge or exercise that our readers, our listeners. Excuse me that our listeners could do to to boost their relationship. Is there any quick five minute technique or exercise that they can do?
Dr Wyatt Fisher
Sure. So on the thread of compassion, there’s something that I have individuals work on, which I call a compassion chart. And what it is is if you’re in a relationship with a significant other, you and your partner and if they’ve done something that hurt your feelings or your needs aren’t met, there’s four steps that go through that can cultivate. And compassion around that hurtful behavior. Now, before I even go into the details, the goal here is not to absolve your partner of any responsibility for what they’ve done. However, the IT is intended to highlight or make you more aware or mindful of all the variables that may have contributed to their hurtful behavior. So normally, in the beginning, before. People do this when they’ve been hurt. They blame their partner 100% for that hurtful behavior. But after they go through this compassion chart, usually they’re only blaming their partner about 40 to 60%, and that decrease is because of the increase in compassion. So if you imagine again something your partner has done has hurt you, whether it’s in the past or it’s occurring now, the first thing to consider is what have they been through in their past? Usually they’re upbringing. Then they have predisposed them to behave in this way. That’s hurting me. So that’s the first question to think about. And sometimes you may not know that answer, so you. May have to. Ask your partner. Like what? What did you go through? If anything that may have encouraged you or influenced you to behave in this way that’s hurting me. Just question one second question is, what about your partner’s circumstances may have influenced their behavior that hurt you? You know, were they going through stressful times at work or were they going through stressful times with with their friends or with their family? What were they going through in their life and their circumstances beyond you and them? Then they have also influenced them to behave in the way that hurt you. That’s question number two. Question #3 is, what were you doing, if anything that may have influenced them to behave in the way that hurt you? Maybe use some comments you were making. Maybe there were some behaviors you were doing or behaviors you weren’t doing that influenced them to respond to you or to behave in a way that hurt you in return. So you have to look for your part and again that may not always be applicable, but at least you want to consider what did I do that may have contributed to their hurtful behavior back to me. And the 4th question is, what about your past might be getting triggered from their hurtful behavior, so this can happen in two ways. Maybe their hurtful behavior is activating the wound in your past, and so your reaction is stronger. Or maybe their hurtful behavior is activating a value in your. Past and it’s. It’s violating this value you were raised with. And so you want to look for that as well, because often when our partner has done something that hurts us, not always, but a lot of times it’s triggering things from our past that has nothing to do. Or partner, whether it’s a wound or a value. And so just to be mindful of that as well, because even if you didn’t have your past, your partner’s behavior still would probably hurt your feelings. However, because of these things in your past, it might be cranking up your reaction to the hurtful behavior by a few degrees. So if. You put that together, it can really. Expand our awareness of all the pieces that may have been at play that influence our partnership for behavior. So #1, again, is what about their past may have influenced their hurtful behavior #2 what about their circumstances may have influenced their hurtful behavior. #3 what did you do, if anything, that may have influenced their hurtful behavior and #4. What about your past? Might be getting stirred up in reaction to the hurtful behavior. So that’s a great exercise to do anytime you feel like your partner has hurt your feelings, because again, it will grow that compassion and forgiveness. Often follows compassion.
Paul Harrison
Yes, it’s about being aware of what, what the fact that they’re human and what led them to do.
Dr Wyatt Fisher
That action, yes. And and again, it doesn’t absolve them from any responsibility because they still are probably to blame for certain elements of what they. It did, however, it does move it from like they’re 100% to blame to. Maybe they’re 40 to 60% to blame.
Paul Harrison
It’s very interesting actually, because that technique as you’ve described it is quite similar to another form of meditation that. Not many people know about unless they happen to be Buddhist. Which is called Karuna. Which is actually the the proper meditation for compassion according to the Pali Canon. So I’m just gonna let our listeners know about what that is. So as you were saying with that technique, it’s about reminding the. That the the individual is human and that they are fallible to mistakes and that there’s things in their background and and motivators and things going on that led them to to take the action that caused you harm. And so Karuna meditation is very, very similar to that because when we do Karuna meditation essentially. We bring to mind moments of suffering, and then we ask well, what caused this individual. To act in this. Way perhaps they were suffering themselves and so from their suffering they acted in a way they. Went on to. Harm us. It’s funny how there are many similarities between. Old philosophies and spiritualities and and what science now discovers.
Dr Wyatt Fisher
Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there’s truths seem to be, you know, universal and recycled and just repackaged. But yeah, that’s definitely an overlap of that first part of the compassion chart. And then the only other parts that are added to that is your part. Like, what are you, what you’re bringing to the table with? You may have contributed in your past.
Paul Harrison
So white were nearly at the end of this episode. Now, if our listeners were like to get in contact with you, where would they find you?
Dr Wyatt Fisher
Yeah, the the best way to find me, one of the best ways would be through my podcast. So my podcast is called the Doctor Wyatt Show. It’s for couples who want to strengthen their relationship, so whether you’re dating or engaged or been married for 25 years, we all need regular encourage. The podcast is very to the point. It’s usually actionable takeaways. Each episode is around 15 minutes, but yeah, that’s one great way that Doctor White Show podcast and then everyone is welcome to check out my website for resources. I have, you know, blog posts and apps and all sorts of things on my website. And that’s Doctor Wyatt fisher.com. So DRWYATTFISHE r.com.
Paul Harrison
Alrighty. So I’d just. Like to do a quick recap for our listeners. Troubles in relationships are inevitable to a degree. As we spend time together, inevitably there are going to be moments of of struggle and strife. But the key to overcoming those moments is compassion. You can help yourself to be more compassionate by considering what led somebody to perform that action that. Found you. And also how you might have influenced their own behavior when you understand things and you’re mindful of what is motivating different people’s behavior helps you to develop compassion and therefore to allow your relationship to flourish. I. Would just like to thank. Doctor White Fisher for his time on this show. Again, check out the Doctor Wyatt Show podcast. And sorry, what was your website again, Wyatt?
Dr Wyatt Fisher
Doctor Wyatt fisher.com.
Paul Harrison
Got to wait fisher.com remember to subscribe and until next time have a sensational time.
Paul Harrison BSc is a qualified meditation teacher who believes in genuine, authentic meditation. He has more than 15 years experience in teaching meditation and mindfulness both to individuals and to corporations and is the author of four books on meditation. He has been featured in Psychology Today, Breathe Magazine, Healthline, Psych Central and Lion’s Roar.
Paul studied meditation in beautiful Oxford, UK, and Hamilton Ontario Canada, and earned his degree at Staffordshire University.
Paul’s biggest inspirations include Thich Nhat Hanh, Jon Kabat Zinn, and Jack Kornfield.
“My goal is to provide the most authentic meditation sessions so you can harness the power of your own mind for personal transformation” – Paul Harrison